Dear Aunt Agony... Subutex or Methadone?

Dear Aunt Agony...

Hope you had a decent xmas and new year. We had a wonderful white xmas over here in Fife,Scotland. Story book stuff it was.

Anyway,i wanted to say that I'm currently on a waiting list for the local methadone programme (16 weeks waiting list) as i'm struggling to buy it on the street now what with everything else im using.

I wanted to ask you about Subutex/Suboxone as you mentioned it in your blog. I know everyone is different and there are a lot of factors involved but the stuff i've read about it is conflicting. Is it a poor cousin of methadone in your opinion?

Would it spoil my enjoyment of heroin and other stuff if i was given Subutex instead of methadone as some say it's a blocker?

That's been said about methadone but when i use H on top of methadone it certainly doesn't block or take away any enjoyment.

Thanks for reading and i hope your doing well man.


Ed x

Aunt Agony says:

Hiya Ed,

Oh, I'm not too bad... though it could be better(quite a bit better, haha!)

Yeah, we had a white christmas over here too. Normally if I'd have said that it would've meant there'd been a lot of crack about, but not this time... not in france. Just cold cold snow.


No, it's not a poor cousin of methadone, it's very different and more like heroin than methadone. Unfortunately after being a heroin addict it then only serves to keep illness at bay and you don' get any of the classic opiate effects. I prefer methadone. But you can shoot subutex.

Yes, subutex does act as a blocker., and Suboxone is even worse. friends of mine stabilized on subutex tell me they don't even feel the effects of a shot of H unless they've not taken subs for at least 24hrs. Though on low doses you can feel it, but it's still weakened.

I'm the same as you,I don't feel methadone blocks the effect of heroin, though it does depend on what dose you're taken and how long before you've just knocked it back. I find the effect of smack is lessened if you use withing the first 5 hours of drinking a usual dose of methadone. But it's only weakened, not blocked.

When Subutex was first introduced as a substitute (in general) it worked like this:

Methadone was prescribed to injecting addicts, and subutex was preferredfor those who were snorting or chasing. But over here in france there are more IV users on subs than on juice. Another problem I've come across is that injecting addicts were not initially held at ALL by subutex
and were getting sick even after being medicated. The period of stabilization is certainly harsher for sub users. Personally, I'd always choose methadone, but I also know people that swear by subutex. I suppose is what ever you get used to and what you know psychologically will hold you.

Why don't you try this:

buy some subutex on the street (say an average daily dose x 3) try using it and see how it goes. If it's agreeable maybe try speaking to your GP and seeing if you can cross over bu on the strict condition if you feel it's not foing what it should you can swich right back to methadone... it shouldn't be problem. This happens a lot, as many people suffer horrendous migraines with
buprenorphine (subutex) and are then put on meth.

What's not in doubt is that Subutex WILL block the effect of heroin. So, if you want to continue using H it's not the best choice.

Let me know what you do and keep in touch...

All my Thoughts

Auntie. X

- - -



Bec said...

I realise that I am late in commenting seeing as I'm doing so 3 years after the original post so I'll comment to warn anyone else who wants to try it...

Anyone who is addicted to Heroin or Methadone that takes Subutex will be catapulted into a full blown rattle and no matter how much gear you take to try and sort yourself out you cannot. You just have to wait til the Subutex has worn off. Bad times!

If you take Subutex when you are not addicted to anything it will give you the same feeling as taking heroin would.

If you are already on Methadone and are advised to switch to Subutex you are advised to take no heroin or methadone for (I think its 3 days or something similar) So basically get half of the worst of your rattle done and switch...not much point really is there?

Memoirs of a Heroinhead said...

Hiya Bec, thanks for your comment.

The post isn't 3 years old it's just I backdated it as I didn't want them to head the site as they have a page of their own. They were put up only about two months ago.

I agree with your second statement that someone who has never used heroin will get the same effect from subutex, but your first statement doesn't hold true to many users. I know many addicts who have made the transition from heroin to subutex without the slightest rattle, and there are even comments someone on this site of people swearing by it. Of the others who have a harsher transition it's still nothing compared to a proper heroin rattle... just uncomfortable. I also do kow people who have said they had days of proper withdrawal but they are in a small minority. Also using heroin and then switching to subutex when you can't score or have no cash doesn't leave users in withdrawal. Over 80% of the addicts here in france use subutex as a substitute and the huge percentage of them use on top and only use their medication when they've no smack. It holds them as methadone holds me whe I've no gear. I've also used subutex alongside and on top of methadone, and although it doesn't give any opiate kind of feeling it certainly didn't put me into withdrawals.

So 'can' happen and 'will' happen are miles apart and we must be careful with things like that.

Personally, I think if I was put on subutex from heroin I would be one of the few who withdraw. I started my opiate addiction on subutex and even then I was taking five times the amount addicts are prescribed nowadays to hold them. It was a great opiate though when I was new to it... better than heroin in that it has a much longer duration.

Thanks again for reading and your comment... All My Thoughts, Shane. X

Bec said...

Hello again,

I suppose everyones different, there are always exceptions to the rule, after all everyones tolerence and body reactions are different. I would think the higher your tolerence for heroin you have the more you would rattle if you took subutex.

My comment was taken only from my own own experience when a friend bought a load of subutex and handed them out round a group of 8 of us. All of the people in the group had higher tolerences and used at least 6 bags a day some of the group also used methadone. Alot of them had taken subutex before when they'd been in prison (which meant they'd all been clean when they last took subutex) so as soon as they got their hands on the tablets, they went straight down their necks or up their noses. I decided to hold back and keep mine for later (thank fuck) all of them were ill, except me and no matter how much gear they took they couldn't pull themselves round. Whilst I got slowly and surely more wrecked by the minute :) Aww, I did feel bad for them though.
So yes, I suppose I can only draw from that experience and can't vouch for everybody, especially those with lower tolerences.

What I don't understand is how people who've taken subutex for a long time can take gear ontop of it and still feel the effects of the gear... Afterall, isn't subutex supposed to be a blocker?

Anonymous said...

Hi, just reading the posts above as I am 5 days into my subutex programme and wanted a bit more info. When I was smoking gear I used to also use subutex when out of gear. I took it to early once which was about 5 hrs after my smoke and yep I rattled to hell. There is no smokng your way out of it. Now the way the transition works is to wait at least 8 hrs after heroin use then u can take half the dose you'll be on but they advise you try and wait as long as possible. Then try wait 6 hours for your other half. I presume this was to prevent rattling. The next day you get your full dose, in my case 8mg. Also a 3 day course of diazipam. I must admit I felt a bit uncomfortable at night like a slight rattle for a few days but nothing that bad. Now It's holdin me and theres no point scoring coz it'll do nowt. Glad I went down this route rather than meth because I don't want to use ever again and apparently they are easy to reduce from escpecially early on. Jeeesus i'm ranting, moral is if you wanna use subbies jus dont take to much too soon and if you wanna take gear on em just forget it, peace

Anonymous said...

Hi all
Thought I would give some expert (I am a medicinal chemist) info on why subutex but not methadone is causing heavy users to go into withdrawal without possibilities to cure it with smack. The problem with Subutex is that is has a very high affinity (the strength in witch it binds) to the opiate receptors and at the same time it is only a low efficacy partial agonist (meaning that it can never give your opiate receptors full effect no matter what dose you take). This is of course the point with this medication, but if you are used to H or any other full opiate agonist, Subutex will only block the full effect and deliver it's partial effect, leaving the addict in withdrawal. Methadone on the other hand does not have as high affinity and have somewhat higher efficacy, giving the H a chance to have effect alongside it. If you are in a pitch getting withdrawals from Subutex, try getting hold on some Fentanyl or any of it's likes, they have even higher affinity than Subutex and are fulll agonists like H. Hope this could help someone out there. Take care
The Chemist

Memoirs of a Heroinhead said...

Sounds like good advice The Chemist... thanks.

I started out on subutex (temegesic back then and not yet used as a heroin substitute) and the drug has absolutely no effect on me anymore... won't even take the edge off illness. Itmust do the trick for many though, as here in france Subutex is now the main prescribed substitute... something like 7 out of every ten addicts treated with it. I've heard both extremes: some swear by it and others say it left them rattling. And it doesn't seem to be about how much H you was using, as one of the biggest proponents of the drug I know was also one of the heaviest users I've known. Must be individual chemistry... some of us are just damned! X

Anonymous said...

hey, i was reading this thread.. thx for the info guys! anyways i smoked/ shot a little good stuff (between that and what i did last night totalled 1g) and decided to see what would happen if i took some bupe.. i read on a thread that i could be crushed on foil and smoked.. been doin that and its NOT BAD! anyways about 10 hours after my last dose i smoked about 3mg of subutex and it worked very well.. had me calm and ready to sleep.. no rattles here (however i have been on bupe for a couple months now so my system mayt just be used to it

Anonymous said...

Hey!! Hope you all well?? I've just come across this conversation and woah.... It brought back some memories... For me it's been 15yrs of smack, subs and meth, and although the subs worked very well in the early years of my addiction buy the time I was shooting up 6 or more a day it did not, I have gone into serious withdrawals with it and that was supervised in rehab.. Any how I got clean on methadone and have been for a year now, honestly I totally regret using anything on top of my smack and crack habit as it made it a whole lot worse to Kick!! I would say it's much safer to stock to the meth unless your ready to kick the gear, saves alot of hasstle... X

Anonymous said...

Great thread guys, I have been on subs for 10 months and after 18 years of high usage I think that's not to bad but I will admit to scoring last night but I am now scared to have a smoke but am scared as people have said that having B whilst on subs also throws you into withdrawal. Does anyone know if thats true? Not asking for the go ahead to use guy's but I am interested to find out without 'finding out'

Memoirs of a Heroinhead said...

hey anon, no, taking heroin while on subutex will not throw u into withdrawals... it's not even possible. People really do speak a huge amout of crap, jesus. I think some, just because they're clean, want to either create scare stories or invent another bout of sickness so as they've some nightmare tale to tell. 80% of the drug addicts on France are on Subutex and of them, I'd guess, 80% use on top (some every day, others when they can) NO-ONE goes into withdrawals. The subutex will slightly block the effect, but if you've not used smack for some time then you should get a decent hit of it regardless.

But be careful, as someone else remarked, that you are talking of SUBUTEX and not SUBOXONE, a the two are quite different. Suboxone is a much heavier blocker, and taking suboxone (if you've a heroin habit) can knock u into withdrawals. The other way around, you'll still not be sick, just maybe sick you've spent your money and got fuck all effect in return.

Smoke away... sounds like a pretty good idea to me. X

Anonymous said...

Hi, I just came across this blog when trying to find out if people should be taking subutex without and addiction to heroin.
the reason I am tryin to find this out is because my boyfriend was an addict but went into rehab over 3 years ago and has been clean (as far as I know)ever since. The thing is he came home from work yesterday and went to bed as he felt ill and had a migraine. I found a box of subutex (8mg) in his coat pocket and didn't know what they were. I googled them to find out that they are used for heroin withdrawal. This has shocked me. 6 tablets are missing out of the box and the box doesn't have like a prescription label on or anything. Can anyone tell me why my boyfriend would be taking these now when he has been clean for so long? I am really worried that maye he is back on heroin. Would I really have missed this? he works pretty much 7 days a week so is always tired but I don't really know what the signs would be?? Any answers would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.xx

Memoirs of a Heroinhead said...

hey Anon,

maybe look at this in a more positive way: you've not found heroin in your bf's coat pocket. And just because he's using subutex doesn't mean he's using subutex because he's been using heroin again. maybe he had a wobble or some days he was thinking of heroin and instead got hold of a substitute to take that urge away. If he done that you should be proud of him as 90% would go straight for the heroin.

Asthe box isn't prescribed to him he's either bought or borrowed them in the street. They would most likely cost more than heroin itself (a full box certainly) so i couldn't see him buying subutex if he was using heroin. That doesn't mean he's not using heroin, but if he's showing no signs of it, no bizarre behaviours before you found the subutex, etc... then it's probably just the subutex.

Why was you searching his pockets? Going through his pockets? Only you will know the truthful answer, but if you was looking for something then you can't really trust him... even after he's been clean three years. He'll pick up on that and his drug use will then be kept secret from you. There's often a paranoia in the non-using partner when their other half gets clean - a paranoia that is cancerous and damaging. That's not a criticism but the constant suspecting, accusations, grillings can keep heroin a daily presence in your and the addicts life, and the constant reference to it is often the trigger that gets the addict shooting again.

Unless you have some indisputable proof that your bf is using heroin again then you should be relieved he's turned to subutex rather than heroin. He's felt week, resisted, and taken the help of the drug that is prescribed for such instances. X

Anonymous said...

I know this isn't a pregnancy forum, but this seems like the best place for me to pose my question. I've been on Subutex my entire pregnancy. I'm presently 38 really any day now. I'm down from 16mgs to 2mgs daily. Ideally I'd have liked to be off all together, but I can't seem to make that happen. My concern is pain care during & post birth. I always thought that since Subutex did not have the naloxene that Suboxone does that you could use anything on top of it & still feel effects, but Im pretty Sure I've already proven that wrong for myself. As much as I do not want this bambino to go through withdrawals I can't help but also think of myself & pain relief. Call me selfish. I was told today that one of the meds they routinely give while in labor is Nubain (which if I'm on subutex means I will go into withdrawals because it ~the Nubain~ contains a partial antagonist (is that right?). ). Anyways, the doc also said Demerol & morphine are other options. I've given birth before, 5 years ago & wasn't taking anything at the time. But I did need pain relief during labour & for a few weeks after...I felt like I had been hit by a train. I guess I'm trying to ask is will ANYTHING work on top of the subutex? Thanks.

Memoirs of a Heroinhead said...

Hey Anon... I'll answer quickly and briefly as I was online as this came through.

Firstly, yes, other painkillers will work with subutex, though other opiates may not be as efficient. I'm not sure if you've noticed but opiates will never take away a headache... even if yopu double or triple dose, yet two paracetemol or ibuprofen will. So there's a quick proof that other painkillers work, and at there recommend dose.

Concerning going into withdrawals, as long as the doctors are aware (and i'm sure they are) that you're using subutex they'll not administer ANYTHING that will bring on withdrawals while you're giving birth. Apart from anything it could be very dangerous, and we all know the weird effects withdrawals play on our bodies (libido, women's cycles, etc), so who knows what effects the withdrawals may have during a pregnancy and contractions. I've know two women on high doses of subutex who have given birth and neither of them were given anything (known or otherwise) that caused withdrawals. You've also the right to refuse medication, so if against what you know and have researched they are going to administer that drug, refuse it and they quickly find an alternative because the pain restriction in patients is as much for the doctors benefit as it is for the patient.

Baby born addicted to subutex. Obviously not ideal and not what anyone would ever want for their child but opiates aren't a drug you can quit just because you're pregnant or they're not in someone's best interest. If it was that easy they'd not be a problem. So don't kick yourself or feel evil or bad for the baby being born with atht problem. You know in yourself you'd never have wanted that and that honesty is enough. Be thankful you're at least on the subutex rather than having a heroin addicted baby which is much harsher. The two women I knew, they both gave birth to addicted babies (very mildly addicted as the amount of subutex that reaches the baby is minimal). Both babies were weaned off over a fortnight with no side effects or suffering whatsoever. They were normal, healthy births and babies. The only thing I did find was that one mother was paranoid and scared evertime the baby yawned or cried for no reason that it was suffering withdrawals and couldn't express it. That thought really got to her. I don't think she had any valid grounds for that worry... Babies yawn and cry.I also don't think the hospital would stop medication until they're a thousand per cent sure the baby had been weaned clean.

Ok, hope some of that helps and maybe someone else may see this and have some input for you...

All the Best, Shane. X

Oh Negative said...

No death threats, sorry I'm just not much of a poet..So you're safe.

Just started subutex today. Got one under my tongue as I type, in fact.

I can't speak as a heroin head, only tried it once and I don't talk about my experience openly. Roxies, oxycodone, demerol, dilauded, morphine and fentanyl were my drugs o' choice. I've been on them for about a year (yeah I'm a lightweight, kinda) so here I am on subutex trying to detox. last fix was 4 days ago. Day one was okay-ish, nose ran a little bit, got the shakes and watery eyes. I heard it through the grapevine, that taking subs too early can send you into unholy rattles. Day 2..Was getting a bit rattly, really eyeing the bottle of 10/325 percocets on my dresser. The sweats kicked in, nausea, big pupils. Day 4 (today) the head games kicked in, I felt so depressed and that just isn't me. I felt like I had lost a loved one. My anxiety was through the roof..weird feeling being apathetic and on edge, prepared for a battle to the death. I stripped down and stepped into my walk-in shower. There are jets surrounding me, overhead there is a rainfall square. I fiddled and fumbled with the digital interface. I turned on the rainfall spout and waited for it to heat up before pressing play on the interface where an mp3 player is connected. I stepped under the water as the Seether cover of careless whisper began to play. I sang along in a soft raspy tone until ~BAM!~ It was as if someone nailed me in the jugular with an emo dart. I sank to the floor over the drain and began to sob, I truly wept harder than I have in many a years. I managed to console myself briefly and climbed to my feet before shutting off the water. I grabbed a fresh towel and put it to my face, inhaling the scent of Gain detergent as I dried my hair. I looked in the mirror and stared into my own soft blue eyes, they were a bit bloodshot, surrounded by dark, bruise-like circles as if I had been dabbling with eyeliner. This feeling of complete fuckedness hit me and I began to sob again as I dried the rest of my body before lumbering into my bedroom to put on some boxers.

After all that, still sobbing, I took the bottle of 8mg subutex and decided it was time. I carefully opened the bottle and took a tiny pill from within before halving it. I popped it into my mouth and under my tongue it went. I nudged it far back there with my tongue piercing and sat down on my bed. I took a deep breath and released it, smirking a bit as I noticed a slight numbness on the top of my tongue where the pill had touched. The pill tasted like shit as it dissolved. It wasn't very long. My chills subsided. It was like being wrapped in a warm comforting blanket and embraced by a loved one. Ah, once again there was an opiate filling my body with its effects. The rattles were gone gone gone, back to hell from whence they came. There wasn't really a 'high' but there was so much relief it felt like there was. That is my current subutex experience. Seems I am QUITE A BIT late! Posting here since the posts are dated 2011.

Unknown said...

That's bull shit it doesn't make u rattle under 8 mil u want any proper helpful advise from a real ex baghead email me I'm sure I can help pass it on , layers

Mikeq Quirk said...

4got 2 mention I used 2 like young boys was why I started using H to try and stop those feelings. finally my conviction for sexual abuse against minors was what allowed me 2 kick both addictions, as in prison I was reunited with Jesus and my life has only been fantastic since.

Anonymous said...

I am sick from heroin rate now.. I shoot it.. I do a 40 of raw at once three times a day... Ive been smoking crack off n on tonight n course It eats your dope up and now I'm starting to get sick. I have 7 SUBUTEX and I am wondering if I shot one would it throw me into withdrawal.. When I take SUBOXINE before 24 hours it throws me into bad withdrawals .. And I am going to get some heroin sometime today but since I'm ill will subutex put me in withdrawal like suboxine does AND is it true if I do a subutex on a herion habbit and I shoot one 8 mg .. Later when I get money n get heroin will subutex block my high from heroin?

Anonymous said...

I been hooked on pain killers for 15 years. I started using liquid oxy on my 20s. I got so bad that at one point I was using 4 to 6 hundred milligrams of oxy a day, just to feel normal, anyway I've been taking tec Notre for a year and it's totally gelled me get off oxy and h. But I'm down to a quarter a tec a day and I'm ready to stop taking them I'm just freakin out cuz the withdraw from these things are a lot worse than I thought they would be. The physical party ain't that bad it's just that it comes with a very strong depression. Wish me luck cuz my drs kicked me out because I wouldn't stop smoking pot. Anyway here I am, I almost think I'm gonna have to go from a quarter tec a day, down to a sixteenth a day and then go from there. I know the tecs helped me quit oxy, but I feel like I need somehelp to kick the tecs once and for all. I'M SICK OF BEING SICK!!

scarey320 said...

I have a son who is on 120 mg of methadone daily, and still shoots heroin, isn't that dangerous?

Unknown said...

Sub's are the best

Unknown said...

I guess I'm just gonna get to the point rather than spill my whole bf was using heroin for a bunch of years while we were broken up. He went to jail and was clean for 8 months, got out and we got back together. About a month later he was using again. I have no experience with heroin so at first I didn't know what was going on. For the next 2 years it was a battle between the dope and subs. He always told me "I can't get high when I'm on subs" and for a little bit I believed him till I researched it. Honestly, I dunno why people waste money on either dope or subs just to take them at the same time cause it seems like a waste of either or both! Anyway, I think he's been clean for a while now but there are times I think he's high even though he's on suboxone. He now has to go to a new doctor and he wants to be on subutex because he has no insurance and that is the cheapest. I'm just worried that that's his bullshit excuse to be on a medicine that he knows will allow him to do dope if he can get his hands on it and not worry about getting sick. Am I just nuts? Lol. Also, he does have legitimate pain issues that any doctor would give him opiates for but he would rather be on subs cause it helps with the pain, eases his anxiety, and he can still get a little buzz sometimes which I'm fine with, I prefer that over sticking a needle in his arm. We have 2 children together and I want their father to be around for them, not have a chance to stick too much in his veins that he ODs and leaves us all :( Ive read everything on here and maybe I just need a direct answer to me..does the subutex block the dope? Or is it just partial or none at all? And if it only weakens the high, you would have to do more to get that high and doesn't that give you a higher chance of ODing especially if you're not using like you used to? And is it true that its the naloxone in the suboxone that really does that blocking? Cause subutex doesn't contain that right? One more thing, is subutex also used to treat pain?

Unknown said...

Subutex above 8mg will certainly block the effects of Heroin. I am currently on 4mg after a 4 month taper and have dabbled with heroin to my personal chagrin and can say the effects are so mollified by the subutex as to not be worth the expense. Below 4mg, who can say, presumably the effects will strengthen.

Anonymous said...

I have been on and off H ever since I was 15. I'd been on Methadone for the last 10 years almost and had my last dose on Wed of 26ml and unfortunately was smoking right up until yesterday. I had a smoke at 8 last night and then popped a 8mg subutex in my mouth at 9:30 today. Sweet jess, within an hour I felt the withdrawal step up a gear and now all I want is a jab as I've done this before, for all my sins. Point being, how long have I got a wait until I feel this bag I've bought. Was told a minimum of 12 hrs but probably more? Thing is, because I've only had one 8mg. Can I not just have it now?

Anonymous said...

Yes bc it is going to take way more heroin than usual to get high. Once over 50mg of methadone it starts to have a blocking if he usually shot half a gram to get high..he would probably need AT LEAST double to triple the amount of heroin to get high. And what he may not realize it's that even though he isn't getting the same high..the morphine is still going to his brain. And he could easily overdose. Trust me..I know from experience. I'm not a doctor..but I am someone who was addicted to heroin for ten years..And I shot heroin while on methadone too. 120mg is a high obviously it isn't working. I switched to suboxone 18 months ago and I have only.relapsed once. It has truly saved my life. If he is not ready to get clean..then neither of them will work regardless. Once I was ready to get clean..I got on suboxone and I go to AA meetings and I don't have any urge to use. But..every one is ready on there own time. No one else can make him get clean but himself. I suggest Alanon. My mom is in it and it has changed her life. Families need help too. I don't know if this answered your question..but I will pray for you and your son. ... Jenna

Anonymous said...

Hi everyone just stumbled across your "subutex vs methadone" dilemma. I see lot of people scared of using subutex or not wanting to use it, for me it was the best decision eve really, if you really want to get clean there is nothing better than subutex, first it stops the withdrawal even in smaller doses, doesn't make you drowsy so if you have to go to work, school etc you are not falling asleep and yes it does block the opiates, which if u r serious about quitting is the best thing that it can do for you. But if you take SUBUTEX and try to do heroin it definitely DOES NOT make you rattle, of you had the experience of rattling than it's most likely because you have been prescribed SUBOXONE not subutex. SUBOXONE is buprenorphine with Nalaxone and nalaxone is the one that causes you to rattle as it reverses the effects of opiates and is used treating overdoses. So from my long years of experience yes u can do heroin on top of subutex, but u won't get high so u might as well just not do it at all, also do not try to do higher doses trying to get the high after u have taken subutex because u r more likely to overdose. Subutex has half life around 24-48 hrs so if u really want to get high it's better to wait xx

Anonymous said...

Dear Shane,

Is it ok to ask you some questions about subutex prescription in France?
Do you know if you have to be withdrawing in order to be prescribed it like in the UK? I ask because having been on subutex for two years and turning my life around, I came off it completely and now find life pretty unbearable without it. I would like to go back on it but doing so in the UK means that I would first have to take heroin again and withdraw from it to get a subutex prescription, which is far from ideal...the problem is sending me insane.
Thanks and all the best,

Shane Levene said...

Hey Charlotte...

No, it's not the same over here. Your substitution unit is your friend here and not your enemy. The workers are not out to fuck you up, and the main desire of the centre isn't to find reason to chuck you out and call you a worthless piece of shit, but to keep you well.

Here you can even use heroin on top of your script without the fear of being punished. So it all works differently and for the better here.

If you need subutex here you go to the clinic and register and within a few weeks you'll have it. Even if you're not using heroin, but struggling to stay clean. It'd still be best to lie and say you are a current addict. If ever your urine came back clean (though I'm sure they don't test it to check)you can say that you've been struggling to stop and managing but it's a huge daily battle and only time (without a substitute) before you crack and start using heroin again. It's also free. X

Anonymous said...

Dear Shane,

Thank you. And above all, thanks for providing a space where it's ok to ask these kinds of questions that is free from all the moralistic overtones that they always seem to elicit practically everywhere else.
All the best,


Anonymous said...

I have been on either heroin, methadone, suboxone or subutex for the last 13yrs. Which sucks because I'm only 31. I'm currently on Subutex but have been using heroin on top of it for the last year. Most of the time I don't take my subs so I can better feel the dope. I'm trying to stop using heroin but I'm afraid of going thru withdrawal. If I up my sub dose for a few days will this block withdrawls? Or would I need to get back on methadone and come up to a high enough dose before my withdrawls would be eliminated? I'm actually sitting in the parking lot of the methadone clinic right now debating on what to do.

Anonymous said...

I made the last post..... In case anyone is reading this in the future and has the same issue. I did not end up going into the methadone clinic. I uped my suboxone and I'm only having mild withdrawls...sneezing sweating and not sleeping well but it's bearable. I realized if I take 3 8mg subs a day the third one makes me feel extremely unpleasant and jittery for about an hour and a half. So 2 8mg seem to have been good for now. I'm really thankful I didn't go back on methadone! God I hated having to go to the clinic every single day. I noticed subtex makes me very depressed. I swear I've cried 50x in the last two days. I had a box of suboxone left over from an old script so I switch to those and feel a lot better. Hopefully after I taper down to a lower dose the subutex won't do that...because that's what my script is for. Before I started using again last year I had been clean for 2.5yrs. My son's father passed away and was really hard to deal with sober. Im so ashamed I put myself back in this position. My son is my life and he's all I have. Every time I would go to score I was terrified of getting busted and having him taken away. Im upset I'd do something like that... addiction is a horrible thing. Especially when you hide it from everyone and are always in the bathroom alone. I pray I can keep myself straight after this. Hope if someone

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Great post. Hope all is better's been a few months so I hope so!!

Shane Levene said...

Hey anon (suboxone)... Thanks for all your info on the subject it'll help many others with the same dilemma. Sorry there was no response to your initial comment but I've only personal experience with methadone as a substitute. X

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Unknown said...

Hello fellow bagheads,

I have a cautionary tale to tell, i have been an opiate addict for over 4 years. I have used subutex to detox several times in the past because of this ive seen subutex as a safety net. Recently my habit spireled out of control. I have been doing 0.6 shot of UK brown heroin every 3-4 hours for about 7 months as i had access to it and as you know the more you have the more you take and it always leads to "that" day. Well i thought i would step off while i could choose to rather than leave it until I inevitably have to. I took a mild shot on the evening and waited 18 hours to dose subutex. Within 4 mins of taking the subutex i knew i had made a mistake as i felt like ice was flowing through my veins and felt all the horrors of withdrawal comming at once and they came with no expense spared. As i am weak minded i did not want to have any gear around because i knew i would take it over the subutex when it came to it. So it was 6am and im in full blown withdrawal and every baghead i know is gouched in dream filled sleep my good lady is just stirring and im already in my 3rd bath of the day panicing because there is no way to hide it. I took some tramadol puked most of them up i snorted more subutex now at around 6mg big mistake made everything much worse. It took me until 10am to score felt like years !! I did 1.7grams of heroin in 3 shots ten mins apart and it only took the slightest edge off my situatiin. So i thought at around 7pm i would take more subutex and just get it in. It is not working ive had 18mg my eyes are like bin lids my legs are kicking the air so i had to score again :-(. What should i do now should i call my case worker and ask to be switched to methadone they will only start me at 35mg regardless. Or should i try the subutex again in the morning i really am suffering here and i just dont know what to do because the subutex is not holding me even a little. An its blocking the gear so im only getting an end to restless legs and the shits out of scoring. Shall i go back to gear and try and get my habbit down? Some advice would be good because my girl thinks ive been on subbie for ages and obviously i stupidly thought id just jump back on it when i wanted error. Thanks guys and gals

Unknown said...

As long as u wait as long as u can after your last bag and only take like 2mg to start with I have allways found it to be ok..u just have to hold out untill u cant bear it any longer like 24 hours + and u should be ook.if after like 30 mins of taking tje 2mg u dont feel any worse ghen id say thats when u start to up your dose...just dont go and drop an 8mg straight away cause u will want to die lol

Anonymous said...

Curgently on day 3 of taking 3 8mg subutex's. I feel like shit. I have been asleep most of the 3 days. Only wake up to take a pill. I feel suicidal, have no energy and don't think I can take feeling like this much longer. Any chance dr. Will take me off this shit?

jutt said...

thanks for the info. i am going on to Subutex tomorrow for one final attempt at quitting the bobby. i have done cold turkey 16 times, done it abroad a few times and been fine, then as soon as i come back to uk, i score as soon as i get off the plane. i have been on juice about 10 times but it never works out as starting people on 35/40ml's means they still need to use, which means heroin still rules your days. so i wonder will the subs be my saving grace? or will my wife and mother think i am a useless wanker when i drop out of treatment after 8 days? lets see....

Unknown said...

Been on 85 mg of Done 4 11 years and this last year I have been on 20 mg.... This morning I split my dose 2 10mg, 2marrow will it be safe 2 switch 2 Subutex??? A quick answer would be very appreciated....

Shane Levene said...

Hey Jason... I've been there. cut down in halves from 150 to 5mg every three days! Never did completely stop as i was still using and so saving up my doses fro after a bout of gear. Then began using gear moire often, went back up to 20mg a day and then to 40 (where i am today and have been for last ' years).

I would wait at least a week before trying to make the change to subs. I wouldn't do it personally until i was on 5mg methadone. But I say wait a week as you'll find when you half like ou've done the first two days are easy, but as you get to lower doses the third and fourth days are a little uncomfortable. because your body has surplus supplies of meth it uses them up over the first two days (hence we feel no differnce) but by day three you're really on yr new dose and the body feels it. I'd give it a week or ten days so as your body is completely adapted to the smaller dose and then make the switch. Though why make the switch at all? My doctor suggested that too and my mothers, but once you get to 5mg of meth a day it becomes purely psychological anyhow as it's not enough to sustain an addiction. My mother tapered from 5 to 0 and is now 100% clean. There was no withdrawal effects or aything, just a little psychological as she'd taken it for so long. But absolutely no physical suffering. Whatever way you dio it, don't firget that you've been on it 11 years now and one or two more weeks or a month (not rushing it) won't make much difference. the danger of rushing it is that you give yrself cravings that you thought were long dead but return at the feeling of being in withdrawal (no matter how sleight). So I'd wait at least a week. Would consider making the switch to subs at 5mg. would also consider not making the switch at all and just tapering off the meth itself. X

Unknown said...

i greatly appreciate ur response.... I think i am gonna drop my dose 2 6mg for 3 more days and try the swirch Thursday cause if I try 2 make the switch Friday, if i dont like it i cant switch til Mon.

The reason i am switching, i have come 2 the realization i am gonna be takin something 4 the rest of my life.... I have a lot of pain issues due 2 my back and my MS.... Figured Subutex will be better cause i have been on Done so long.... If i am on Done i still have the urge 2 take other pills, with Subutex i think i would be a lil more scared 2 take anything on top of it....

Anonymous said...

Shane,...first thing...I've spent the past few days reading this, these...whatever. The website in its entirety. It's fantastic! Secondly, I need a chat!!! An honest, frank chat. I need to be honest. My past junkiedom is open. Everyone knows that I was a junkie. Then I was an ex junkie. Then the girl who has done so well. Now I've fucked up. Not massively, but enough to call it a fuck up. I think I'm fixable...but need an honest opinion. I'll be honest, I've not been honest to anyone else yet! I've got a couple of kids to put to bed, so I will be back later....need an acknowledgment that you're around before I write my long life tale of woe! Thanks, Kate. Xx

Shane Levene said...

Hey ya Darling... Pop it through to my email... X

Anonymous said...

Sorry, me again. These dates are a bit strange, are they? Aren't they? Am I confused? Are you there? You do a fabulous job writing, and I'm so eager to talk, though be it a cyber chat to you! Help a stupid ex junkie now heroin plus methadone junkie who is only using cos she's a bit stupid! Talk to Kate! Honestly, it's the way forward. I'm sure when I've fixed my head the right way around again it's going to be the new thing. People won't (as they bloody well shouldn't) ask about last night Big Brother, they'll ask about me. Kate from Swansea by the sea. I can see the sea from my window if I go on tip toes. Shane.....hello? Are you there? I know you've got a life apart from messaging fuck ups like me,..but please. I'm kinda desperately seeking someone. Kate x

Anonymous said...

What's your email? Or is it here, in this box? Sorry, just read this...didn't look v hard before writing second garbled message....Kate. X

Shane Levene said...

Anonymous said...

Thanks Shane. Thanks for especially for the email. It's a story of me! From a to z. I don't really know what I'm searching for, answer wise. I know what to do.....but in a rut! I'll email you later on. If I fall asleep it will begin the morning. Children off school with Easter Holidays is tiring,..almost got everything ready for day trip to Tenby I cant use on top. It's a prove myself thing. Hopefully it will prove myself that I am still ok and can be rescued. I think it will. I'll email asap. Thanks again �� Kate x

Anonymous said...

I did it‼ Few extra mls of meth and chomping valium....but nothing for days. Managed Tenby, then had about three lines on the foil off a friend on Sat. It's Wednesday now....i feel really good. Tired, but good!

Shane Levene said...

Well done kate... I'll be joining you soon. I'm 48hrs in... what a success!!! I sometimes can't believe this life... celebrating 48hrs clean like it's some kind of fantastic achievement. What scoundrels we are. X

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Unknown said...

I must throw my ha'penny worth, but I must point out it relates to my personal experience and in no way to be taken as Gospel truth. I have been using H for 32 years, the last 17 of which full-blown addicted, on Meth for 10 years, been using all kinds of opiates I could lay my hands on, including Subutex. Yes, used on its own and in the right dosage Subs will give you a nice high, not as good as good as gear but very pleasant. Used in conjunction with H is simply a no-go area: no matter how much brown you do, you won't feel it the slightest. Not even a bit. Zero, nada. It'll be just an outrageous waste of money. Now, transition: once, about 5 years ago, I was on my usual Meth (70 ml per diem as I recall) and, desperate for some high and too skint for skag, I tapped a mate who had lots of unused Subutex. Got it, crushed it, snorted it (the big pills 30 mg although I might be wrong on the dosage) and proceeded to enter one of the worst rattles of my life: I truly thought I was dying. After a nightmarish night and morning, I slowly got back to normal. Naturally I have never touched it again, no matter how many times doctors and key workers tried to nudge me into switching. Meth will do me fine for now, thanks. Shane, I have left you some well-deserved praise on another page. I can't be too effusive. You really are one of the greats. Trocchi who? :-) (I am joking Alexander, but you must admit from the smack-heaven you are currently inhabiting, that you have met a deign successor to that brown-stained crown...)...

Been there said...

Where to start wow...I can help so many people with my knowledge PLEASE listen to me on this topic guys Please.OK here I go.All my knowledge on this topic is first hand I have been on and off subtext and suboxone many times and used it for methadone 120mgs per day 2yrs.I have also used it for opanas and other opiates so I KNOW more than I wish on this topic period guys please listen....So when you use it(subtext or suboxone) to come off methadone you have to wait a lot longer than other opiates.5 days guys at least don't cheat.Now if you use it to come of H or other opiates it's much less like 24-48hrs.If you come off methadone the half life is much longer.Now this is the tricky part I would suggest Subutex not suboxone for methadone the naloxone in Subutex seems to make a difference in easing withdrawal specifically with methadone.Because dones have a long half life when you try to cheat and take the subs to early say day 3 you will have the worst rattles of your life I promise you this.If this happens guys I know this is counter intuitive take another 8mg of subs.I had this happen to me in a detox the nurse told me to do this and after the way that first 8mg Subutex made me feel I told her she was crazy and thought she was going to kill me.I took the other sub and guess what she was right and it worked...crazy I know right.Your first thought would be try to take methadone right?don't that or any other opiate will be blocked at that point.The right and only choice is to take more Subutex it will bind the receptor site and sort of overpower the methadone and fully bind your receptors.This will help someone out there who is wanting to die because the rattles I'm talking about here are the craziest thing I have ever felt it's like the walls were moving and I could not walk I literally thought I was dying guys...I made peace with God and saw my dead grandmother I wish that feeling on no one.
Now on to other opiates like H and opanas this is much easier.OK so when you take your last opiate if you are a serious tolerant addict you will feel like crap 6-12hrs after last dose.You feel like crap but this although you feel like death is not full blown wd's my friends wait another 12hrs till you know you are dying then take your subutex or suboxone doesn't matter.You will within 30min of your dose feel a warm embrace that is not a rush but very comfortable and we'll ...NORMAL.
OK so now on to the can I take my opiate after being on subs question or will I withdrawl.This applies to Subutex or suboxone doesn't matter.You can but the high WILL be blocked you WILL NOT go into withdraws from any opiate.Think of it like this if you are on opiates and take suboxone to soon you will withdrawal but if your on suboxone or Subutex and take and opiate you won't just won't be high.How long you ask?!Glad you asked well 24-72 hours depending on the amount of subs in your system.More time on subs and the higher the dose the more time before you can get a high.
OK so now CAN U GET high just taking Subs question.This is going to depend on a few factors the main one being your previous opiate expirience and tolerance.If you have done serious opiates like H or opanas the answer is no not really your subs will just make you function like a regular person with less anxiety and a cruch.If you are opiate intolerant,haven't truly abused opiates,or only taken opiates a short duration then they can make you very high.
Subs vs methadone debate.I'm talking about maintanance here btw .Both are opiates and both are long acting so wd's from both suck I have experience with both as well.Subs Imo will alow you if you were a slave to serous opiates to live a normal life again because you aren't nodding in your soup but remember your still on opiate don't lie.Your not stealing from your mom but still not clean just keep it real.

Shane Levene said...

Been there... Great comment, EVERYONE ~ Been There's comment is the DEFINITIVE reply to the question. If you only read one thing read his/her advice. X

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It seems to block when it's added to such a level that it makes you super sick. I was taking 25 MLS of methadone, waited over 24 hours till I was in mild withdrawal as suggested, I took 2 mg of subutex and it sent me into a raging click, I'd had the same experience before trying to switch over too Tex from meth and I find you need to push thrroth and take little bits more of the subutex to run the methadones hold on your receptors. It took a few hours but it leveled out.
When you are taking over 6mg, well when I am, it does have a blocking effect but you don't get withdrawal and you can keep using and achieve a high, obviously always try and titrate yourself up in small amounts cos of risk of od. Please excuse the wording of this message but I am now coming off some other meds. One that I've found not too bad to come off if you're on it short term is pregabalin but if you are talking years, like over a decade it takes on a whole new level of withdrawal, I would now put it up there with a methadone click, in some ways it's worse, keep away from it long term if you can....

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You're the only person in this thread who's told the truth. I'm on morphine and sometimes snort a few subutex. Like you said it doesn't create withdrawal, but sometimes lessens the buzz from the other opiate. I think they're thinking of 'Suboxone' which has 'buprenophrine' & 'Naloxone' ... Which is the MAIN BLOCKER.

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